Most diabetic complications are caused by poor circulation, not by blood sugar itself.

By RosalieM Latest Reply 2015-03-08 12:32:27 -0500
Started 2015-02-28 13:02:37 -0600

The research that I did just today, leads me to believe, what I suspected is true. Diabetic complications are caused by poor blood circulation not directly by higher than normal blood sugar.
Higher than normal blood sugar does contribute to poor circulation of course I don't question that.
What I do question is does getting blood sugar down below 6 with drugs prevent the complications of poor circulation. The second question in my mind is, can one prevent poor circulation complications with an A1c of 7? My experience over a total of 30 years, 21 years since diagnoses is yes. I have always paid very close attention to my blood circulation, blood pressure and cholesterol ratios. My numbers are perfect. They were even when I carried extra weight and was insulin resistant. I am a frustrated scientist. If I have been born after woman's lib, I would be a scientist or doctor today. That is what motivated me to do this experiment with diabetes and blood circulation for so many years. To summarize what I have learned: Lowering blood sugar to the ideal range, doesn't prevent complications of poor circulation. Maintaining good circulation, blood pressure and cholesterol ratios, prevents complications of blood sugar of A1c7. hat do you think?

69 replies

birdogron 2015-03-08 12:32:27 -0500 Report

I think you already are a scientist. My previous doctor who I loved (took his time with me) told me to think of high BG as thick syrup which thickens the blood and bacteria thrive in that sugary environment. I ask a lot of questions to every doctor I see. Not just for the information I hope to receive, but it says a lot about them. Another doctor who is good with supplements told me that he has his mom take Nattokinase twice a day. I get mine from Vitacost and it sure is a lot cheaper than Vasculex which probably is a better product, but too expensive for me. 2,000 FU's twice a day. And since I am ok to take aspirin, I take baby aspirin twice a day as well. Plus 14 other supplements. So I am either taking good care of myself or I have very costly pee. It is worth the chance provided it doesn't cause any harm. I have been type one for 38 years and just recently got on a Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM). This seems to work well for me. I have never been in the 7's with A1C's. So Rosalie or anyone else, let me know if you see potential complications in my method if you would. The Nattokinase seems to be the ticket. Anytime a doctor recommends an over the counter supplement meaning no money in his pocket, I am more likely going to believe it. Any comments?

grantville 2015-03-02 14:01:49 -0600 Report

Hi Rosalie, I agree with you 100%. Keeping A1C under control and eating healthy foods is the key. I've had it 47 years, wear an insulin pump, have a 25 year old son,

MarkS 2015-03-01 11:17:41 -0600 Report

RosalieM, Do you rise every morning and make it a point to try to get people on this site as much misinformation as possible? Or do you just want to really piss me off? You need to pull it back. You are not a physician nor are you a scientist. Your supposed "advice" can cause more harm than good. You are incorrect on complications of diabetes - they are indeed a result of POOR GLYCEMIC CONTROL (that's blood sugar control). Making it simple, please read this: The harm that diabetics are faced with is done at a cellular level resulting in circulation problems - but the circulation "issues" are caused by poor glycemic control. At the cellular level, red blood cells are damaged due to HIGH GLUCOES LEVELS; the sugar molecules bind to red blood cells, changing there native shape causing damage throughout the circulatory system, damaging arteries and capillaries. This damage caused by the red blood cells is repaired by cholesterol produced by the liver, leading to arterial plaque formation — all triggered by an inflammatory response. The "misshaped" red blood cells result in greater damage in dense capillary areas such as the hands and feet, and fragile capillaries such as those that feed the kidneys and eyes. I can only imagine what kind of other misinformation you would spew if you went into a scientific field.

RosalieM 2015-03-01 14:47:30 -0600 Report

Your getting pissed off if your responding in your child mode (emotional). If you turn your adult on, you will be able to reason about these things with out getting pissed off. I didn't just make them up. I know that is what they say, I am giving possible alternatives. The American Heart Association said don't eat fat, eat carbs that is wrong and led to a huge increase in diabeties. They also said take calcium pills. It turns out the calcium particles in pills are to big to be absorbed, the calcium ends up in the blood vessels where it catches cholesterol and forms plaque and hardening of the arteries, while the bones are weakened for lack of calcium. The American Diabetes Association says to diabetics, eat 6-11 servings of carbohydrate a day. I don't need to tell you what that does to your blood sugar. What other "expert" do you want me to not question?

MarkS 2015-03-02 11:26:45 -0600 Report

Now RosalieM, You do realize that anger is but one of the normal human emotions, or do you not believe that? And what you said in your response to me did not address the reason for my anger (i.e., pissed off). My anger, again a rational human emotion that is triggered by something someone did or said (which I will address) was due to you spouting misinformation and to be more blunt, incorrect information. It is quite apparent that you like to put your self-serving spin on pretty much everything to say, to twist everything to your mantra of "don't eat carbohydrates because they will cause your blood sugar to go out of control, cause complications, and kill you." Now, if you find a reputable scientific or medical journal (notice, I said reputable) that supports your theories that diabetic complications are caused by poor circulation and carbohydrates are wrong, I will publicly apologize on this forum and state that you are indeed the font of all knowledge. And, while I believe that all that I've posted is correct since I check and re-check my limited knowledge (I don't use herbal shaman sources), it is very possible that I can be in error, If so, I am man enough to both apologize and agree to keep my mouth shut in instances where my ignorance can potentially harm those who visit this forum. Oh, and if you don't believe in emotions (your child), does that mean you don't love people, don't empathize with others, don't wish others success, et., etc., etc.?

RosalieM 2015-03-02 13:18:33 -0600 Report

Anger is certainly a normal human emotion. I engage in sometimes myself, but limit my use of anger to those times when I have no doubt someone with their own full knowledge is trying to do something naughty to me. Then all hell will break lose in me. Mistakes people make, ideas they share that I don't agree with, ignorance, even insulting comments don't qualify for my anger to be stirred up. My self esteem can handle insulting comments when I know they are not true. I am the one that decides that. If I deem myself guilty and I do sometimes, I apologize. I apologized to someone on this board recently because I didn't make a distinction between insulin and drugs. Insulin is a hormone not a drug. I didn't make that clear so I apologized. I do have empathy. When someone on this board makes an important life change for dealing with their diabetes, I support and praise them to a hilt for it. When praise and empathy are given out for say just
a minor day to day thing, I hold back. I feel it cheapens the value to that person. People can get in the habit of looking for attention.
I want my response to really count.
Besides support, I feel this board is important for learning. Sharing ideas whether they are 100%
correct all the time or not, helps make people think and do research. The "experts" have often been wrong in the past. I have no problem having people correct one of my ideas. I will attempt to find the right answer, if I can't I will admit to that. We get closer to the illusive truth
this kind of discussion.

MarkS 2015-03-02 14:59:35 -0600 Report

RosalieM, you are incorrect, insulin is a drug - a drug is (1) : a substance recognized in an official pharmacopoeia or formulary (2) : a substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease (3) : a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body (4) : a substance intended for use as a component of a medicine but not a device or a component, part, or accessory of a device. And this is according to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.

RosalieM 2015-03-03 11:47:21 -0600 Report

Your body makes insulin. Does your body make any other drug. Hormones are not drugs either. They are sometimes used as drugs. Drugs are foreign to the human body.

haoleboy 2015-03-03 11:55:31 -0600 Report

"Your body makes insulin. Does your body make any other drug"
you mean besides steroids, melatonin, seratonin, THP …
Drug: a chemical substance that has known biological effects on humans or other animals

MarkS 2015-03-03 11:53:08 -0600 Report

RosalieM, Look at the definition of what is a drug. That includes insulin, growth hormone, etc. because (read 2 and 3 above) "(2) : a substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease (3) : a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body." Just because you don't believe the definition does not make you correct. Plus read again what you said - "Hormones are not drugs either. They are sometimes used as drugs." If they are used as drugs, then by your definition, they ARE drugs. While it may appear that I enjoy "picking" on you, that is NOT true at all; I just don't like half-truths or misinformation being spread.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-03-01 15:37:39 -0600 Report

yes BUT just because they were wrong about some things doesn't mean they are wrong about everything…some things can not be disputed…the ADA are not the only ones that have studied this..They are NOT my favorite organization either..but even I don't dispute their (and other's) findings on this…I just wish people would spend more time addressing the issue instead of the symptoms…BUT there is a reason my BG goal is normal…because the human body is set up to work in normal mode…anything outside of this causes complications…

RosalieM 2015-03-02 13:32:31 -0600 Report

I agree with what you say. My concern is the "experts" focus so much on blood sugar as the culprit in complications, that they lead people to believe that if you just take their drugs and get your blood sugar low you won't have complications.
That ain't necessarily so. I know that you are perfectly capable of sorting this out but many are not.
A shortage of vitamin K2 can produce the same complications as it causes arteries to be clogged with calcium. We never hear about vitamin K2 why not? "The body is set up to work in normal mode." as you say. We need to pay attention to normal in all things, not just blood sugar. That is the point I am trying to make without writing a whole book.

MarkS 2015-03-01 15:37:18 -0600 Report

Read what you said, you said that complications are caused by poor circulation. Not true, they are caused by poor glycemic control.

RosalieM 2015-03-02 13:36:43 -0600 Report

Poor glycemic control does cause poor circulation as does a shortage of vitamin K2, sedentary lifestyle etc.
That can happen even without poor glycemic control.
Those other things added to poor glycemic control is a double whammy for diabetics developing complications.

MarkS 2015-03-02 15:07:51 -0600 Report

But that's not what you said originally. You said, and I quote: "Diabetic complications are caused by poor blood circulation not directly by higher than normal blood sugar." That's like saying the cart pushes the horse and that's why it moves.

RosalieM 2015-03-03 11:54:07 -0600 Report

Jibber that is certainly true, but I don't have insulin resistance. Don't know if I ever did. The doctor that diagnosed my diabetes said he would rather deliver babies even though I had lost all the weight. He just didn't want to deal with diabetes so I left him. Had no further testing. I know I never had metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance is one of the symptoms of that.

suecsdy 2015-03-01 00:03:40 -0600 Report

Ok, I am a reasonably intelligent person, BUT what I am taking away from this discussion is that because I use insulin to help control my bg, I am doing more harm to my body than good even though I don't have neuropathy, or retinopathy or a miriad of other diabetic complications. So I'm just supposed to ditch the insulin and wing it. It is really great that you all are able to maintain without drugs, but our bodies all react differently and a one size fits all treatment does not apply. If I had come across this discussion after being newly dx, it would have frightened me and sent me into a worse depression than I was already in. God gave us these tools and it is up to us to learn to use them wisely; ie, diet and medication. I do not cover my carbs with my insulin and have made a big effort to eat both less and better. Insulin is a tool. If it helps me get where I need to be, then I'm using it.

RosalieM 2015-03-01 07:07:28 -0600 Report

I do not classify insulin as a drug. Sorry I didn't make that clear. The body makes it's own insulin. If we are short, we are only
replacing what are bodies no longer make. The same for any other hormone, I take insulin too. Insulin is a hormone and insulin is a replacement for what we are missing. You body does not make metformin, actos and other diabetic drugs, They are foreign to our bodies. Even if the insulin, is not human. It can be made from pig insulin. It is still insulin and still lowers blood sugar in the way the body intended.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-03-01 15:30:04 -0600 Report

But yet the findings are that it is in fact more dangerous than the metformin your body doesn't make…

RosalieM 2015-03-02 13:45:32 -0600 Report

Hi Jibber,
I would agree with that for fast acting insulin taken to cover the carbs in a meal. That should be done with diet as you are doing. Fast acting insulin, makes cheating way easier which also results in weight gain.. Metformin for a time is the least problematic as it doesn't cause weight gain. The other drugs cause weight gain and make it nearly impossible to ever get blood sugar under control.
I take long acting insulin, and only enough to make up for my shortage. I am very careful that my diet be as good as I can make it. I want to be well nourished, but not gain weight. That has to be balanced with the right amount of exercise. It can be tricky at times, but worth it. It took me many years to figure this out.

haoleboy 2015-03-01 11:57:33 -0600 Report

… and yet injecting insulin is not without its risks.

Studies have shown that type 2's on insulin have a greater risk for complications than those on other 'drugs'… and even have a higher mortality rate.
I understand that there are circumstances where insulin is required and that I may find myself in that position … but until then I will do whatever it takes to postpone or prevent that from happening. I believe that is achieved by maintaining ideal weight, exercising regularly, eating a low carb moderate protein, high-fat diet and keeping my blood glucose levels as close to normal as possible … hopefully without drugs but if it means taking metformin, so be it.


RosalieM 2015-03-01 14:54:57 -0600 Report

I think that article is referring to fast acting insulin taken according to the carbohydrate in meals. I have taken that in the past. It is dangerous. I refuse to take it. Usually one can get the blood sugar down with a low enough carbohydrate intake. I don't make enough insulin for even a very low carb diet. I only take long acting insulin and just enough to cover what I can't make. My diet is designed to make this work.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-03-01 15:26:22 -0600 Report

The article says insulin…not fast acting insulin…didn't speak at of taking insulin according to carbs in meals…just said insulin…

RosalieM 2015-03-02 13:51:11 -0600 Report

Perhaps it was an over sight by the writer. I have made that kind of over sight myself. I took the fast acting insulin along with the long acting for a time. The fast acting insulin caused me to gain weight as did the drugs. With my long acting insulin and diet, I don't need to worry about my weight anymore. It stays the same.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-03-02 14:47:51 -0600 Report

Lmao…an oversight by the writer…yes THAT is what it is…and NOT you wishing yourself to be correct despite all of the evidence…

RosalieM 2015-03-03 12:05:59 -0600 Report

You need to notice when I correct myself, which I do. It is just my style of writing.
I have taken fast acting insulin for several years, experience counts. How long has
the writer of that article been taking fast acting insulin? I also said in the response above that I had made that kind of oversight myself. That shows I don't think I am always right. Do your feel inferior to me that your make these snide comments to me repeatedly. There is no need for you to feel inferior, you are very intelligent. Put on your adult, it goes better with your intelligence..

MarkS 2015-03-01 11:37:09 -0600 Report

Insulin is not made from pig insulin. The insulin currently on the market (manufactured by Novo and Eli Lilly) is recombinant DNA human insulin. It is identical to the insulin that Type 2 and non-diabetic people synthesize in the beta cells of the Islets of Langerhans in their pancreas. When insulin was discovered in the 1920's by Banting and Best, they used insulin isolated from dog pancreas to confirm their theory that "insulin" would reduce blood sugar in a dog (Marjorie was the dog whose pancreas was ligated and tested the first isolated insulin). Once the theory was proved, it was realized that a source greater than dogs would be required for clinical studies, so cattle pancreas were used to provide the insulin (i.e., bovine insulin). Later, pig pancreas were used (if I remember correctly, it was due to immune reactions to the bovine insulin) to manufacture porcine insulin. While both species of insulin worked in humans, the amino acid sequence differs between human, bovine, and porcine. In 1982, Eli Lilly and Company received approval from the FDA to market recombinant DNA human insulin which is synthesized by E. coli fermentation, purified, and formulated as the trade name Humulin. The rapid acting insulin has two amino acids in the B-chain (a lysine and a proline) switched, which results in a change in the Cmax (time for the maximum concentration of insulin to be reached) to be faster. The product is Humalog and it was approved in 1996. So, no, they are NOT made from pig insulin.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-03-01 00:13:37 -0600 Report

NOT what was intentioned…insulin is sometimes necessary…but should NOT be the first line of defense in place of a healthy diet…which was the message I was trying to convey..and I agree this converstion…maybe a bit much…but sometimes certain things are necessary to counteract the nonsense that facilitates it…some things can not be left to stand alone… It is extrememly irresponsible to lead diabetics to believe that if they could just improve their circulation that they would be preventing all diabetes complications…improving ones circulation is a good thing but as far as it preventing all diabetes complications…certain people…ummm think the entire world revolves round them and that the beginning and end of all diabetic fact is what they have experienced in their life or their limited understanding of what they are reading …If YOU are eating a healthy diet and taking insulin because you need to..nothing that anyone ever says here should make you feel like you are doing something wrong…now if you are chowing down on a big mac and fries..washing it down with a pepsi and slice of cake and covering it with insulin…maybe it is time to reevaluate…wink wink..

RosalieM 2015-03-01 07:28:14 -0600 Report

I am not leading diabetics to do anything. Just telling my experiences and conclusions about my experience based on my own study.
Could I be wrong? Of course I could be wrong. Do you want information you read limited by someone else because you may not understand it or take it wrong? I really doubt that would make you happy. Absolutely no harm can come to anyone by doing what are well known
tactics for improving circulation and blood pressure which is weight loss, exercise and activity and cutting carbs and avoiding trans fats.
On the other hand in our discussion about emotional support, you suggested that maybe the only thing a diabetic can handle is cut out
sweets because of their emotional state. That is dangerous. I insisted they needed the truth about food in black and white. The reader
of what ever is written has a responsibility to question anything they don't understand. For you or I to hide information because we have
taken it upon ourselves to judge what others can handle is exercising control that was not given to us. That is what the American Diabetic Association is doing to us, in my estimation. They are the "experts". I am just a diabetic with a mind of my own.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-03-01 10:00:33 -0600 Report

Oh sweety…I don't misunderstand ANYTHING you post here…and if you are going to claim that you are just posting your "experiences"…then please lead of with "it has been MY experience that for ME"…because that is NOT what you are doing…you can apply a little lotion to a dry patch…but the dry patch is still there underneath…

MarkS 2015-03-01 11:38:26 -0600 Report

Agree. It makes me nervous that she tries to speak as though she is an authority, whereas what she says is far off the mark.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-03-01 15:33:50 -0600 Report

way too many newly diagnosed diabetics here…some of them children in their teens that have just been knocked in the face with a life long illness…they need comforting words, experiences and facts..yes it makes me nervous

RosalieM 2015-03-02 14:05:47 -0600 Report

You are first class mamma type. That is meant as a compliment. I have tendency toward being a caretaker myself. I have learned that caretaking can turn into dependency for some. It is a fine line to walk. Sometimes I don't get it right.
I ask myself, which is the lesser of two evils, catering to emotion or to truth. Emotions are temporary, they can be gotten over.
Truth stands the test of time and where everyone must end up.

valentine lady
valentine lady 2015-02-28 18:52:00 -0600 Report

Rosalie ,
This site is meant to encourage and be supportive. Why do you continue to make discussions that you know are going to flair tempers and opinions.? This discussion is just dumb. The answers everyone gave made more sense than you. Please do me a favor and tell those who have lost legs, feet, toes that it was due to poor circulation. Not all persons who loose limbs are diabetics but the majority are. I know 6 persons here where I live that have one leg to no legs. So
I took this to them. The all 6 are diabetics and said they lost their limbs to complications due to diabetes. Dx. as such and in their medical records as such. Noncompliance…I'm not sure what your reading or studying but their very much out dated and wrong. Use your smart brain for more updated material. This is 2015 not the 1960's. By the way my A1C is 5.2 with no medication. My
Endocrinologist is thrilled. I did it without medication. VL

valentine lady
valentine lady 2015-02-28 18:59:59 -0600 Report

I forgot to add I'm 5.2 with no complications. Mind you, I got here by myself…no drugs to help me along. Just by diet. VL

RosalieM 2015-03-01 07:30:49 -0600 Report

Valentine Lady,
How did you do it? That is valuable information.

valentine lady
valentine lady 2015-03-01 09:35:19 -0600 Report

I got to 6.0 and was taken off of medication. I have gotten to 5.2 with food control. A low carbohydrate, high protein diet …I go from 5.1 to 5.2 consistly. I never go above as long as I stick to my food plan. I DO NOT LIVE ON SALADS. I eat salads and 4 to 6 oz.'s of
protein per meal. Accept for breakfast, I have 2 eggs and bacon. Of course vegetables with 2 meals and fruit for breakfast. I eat 3 small snack a day, between meals. Although quite often I skip the morning snack. It can be done…

RosalieM 2015-03-01 15:07:38 -0600 Report

Hi Valentine,
It can be done! You have proven that. I pretty much eat the way you do, but I am older. If I eat any less I will be malnourished. I could take more insulin and maybe one day I will have to do that.
but for now, I have no problems so I go with what has worked so far. I am concerned about gaining weight with more insulin.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-03-01 09:55:58 -0600 Report

You need to understand something Valentine lady…If it is not within her realm of experiences…or in a book she read from 50 years ago…it just can not be right…I am only taking 500 mg of metformin..thats it…I think we all know how much THAT dose helps with blood sugar…yet well here I am in the 5's…and WILL stay there after coming off my meds..even if I inch up a bit…I will make darn sure I stay in the 5s…

RosalieM 2015-03-01 15:14:12 -0600 Report

I read current books too. I even use the computer and have a cell phone too. It is just that I have studied this stuff so long
and have so much experience that I have gathered a lot of information.
You will be that way too when you are 30 years older than you are now. You will learn a lot in 30 years.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-03-01 15:19:15 -0600 Report

Maybe I just need to turn my "adult on"…how condescending…I am offended for the person you said that to AGAIN and don't understand how you can be so unrefined when speaking to people…and age does not always equate to wisdom…or common sense..

valentine lady
valentine lady 2015-03-01 10:28:03 -0600 Report

Jib Jab,
Please understand, I'm trying to be nice and follow the terms of use. That does not come easy for me, at AT ALL…I think you and I have done remarkably well on our choice of eating plans. Everyone knows it's Atkins. You being in the 5's as well as me is wonderful. of metformin is nothing. Be as proud of yourself as I am of me. Besides you were offered to go off meds and you chose to wait another 3 months. ( from another discussion) I know a knot head when I see one. It's not you…VL

haoleboy 2015-02-28 15:57:02 -0600 Report

I think you make a whole lot of assumptions based on your anecdotal, personal experience … that's not science. The predominance of scientific evidence is that complications from diabetes are due to advanced glycation end-products … by definition a result of high blood glucose levels.
You claim that "Lowering blood sugar to the ideal range, doesn't prevent complications of poor circulation" yet your blood glucose levels are far from ideal, so what is your claim based upon? A desire for that to be true? Again … not science.


RosalieM 2015-03-01 07:40:44 -0600 Report

I like science, but science changes over time. If it didn't we would still be beating on drums to communicate instead of using cell phones. At times science comes along and explains things that have already been learned outside of science. Learnado De vinci was light years ahead
of the scientific community. Everybody can think scientist and discover things if they learn to think like Learnado. Remember "Question everything"
that is what he did. I am just questioning the Status quo and telling you about my experience. You can question what I say, but minding your circulation can only be good. No harm can come from it.

RosalieM 2015-02-28 16:43:18 -0600 Report

Hi Steve,
That is what they say. I am aware of that. I know many diabetics whose blood sugar is in the 5 range with drugs. They have lots of complications.
How is that explained? I suspect the drugs allow diabetics to eat a lot of carbs and still keep blood sugar in the 5 range. I read that some science says that even though blood sugar is down with drugs, the excess carbohydrate go into the cells where the drugs cannot reach and do their dirty deed of nerve damage there, out of reach of blood lowering drugs.
So having an A1c of 7 without drugs, means the glucose level is kept at an average of 154. That is both in the blood and cells. Perhaps 154 isn't the level at which damage occurs. When you take drugs, it is difficult to tell
how the drugs are affecting foods eaten. Been there done that. Insulin makes it much easier to see the relationship between the Insulin and foods.
At least that is my experience.

haoleboy 2015-02-28 16:55:01 -0600 Report

"I know many diabetics whose blood sugar is in the 5 range with drugs. They have lots of complications.
How is that explained? I suspect the drugs allow diabetics to eat a lot of carbs and still keep blood sugar in the 5 range."

My A1c is 5.8, I take 500 mg of metformin 2x daily. I have limited total carbs to less than 100 per day for the past 7 years (under 50 for the past year, at least) yet I have suffered numerous complications
How is that explained?
(my guess is genetics play a major role)


RosalieM 2015-02-28 17:31:04 -0600 Report

Hi Steve,
I have a brother 5 or 6 years younger than I am. He has diabetes and has had several heart attack. He doesn't live close so I don't know how he manages his diabetes. If we continue to compare notes, we make a discovery that we can put our finger on.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-02-28 17:23:19 -0600 Report

Blood sugar is one symptom of diabetes…the reason why some people have low A1Cs and still suffer complications is because the doctors are only treating blood glucose levels with the belief that all you need to do is keep your blood glucose levels down to avoid complications…They are NOT treating the cause of the high blood glucose readings…That is kind of like going to the doctor with a fever from an infection on your hand and having the doctor give you some Tylenol but nothing for the infection. ..You still have progressive diabetes and all of the complications…it is just that large amounts of drugs mask the one symptom that everyone seems to be fixated on…but again it is just a mask…because the insulin resistance that caused the high glucose levels in still there..and many times is being made worse by the drugs…the doctors answer to this of course is take more drugs.. which is why I just shake my head when people tell me their A1Cs are 6.5…or 7…they are taking drugs/shooting insulin and they CAN eat grains and dessert with no problems…the insulin resistance causes the complications…NOT the symptom of the insulin resistance which is high blood glucose levels..High glucose readings are NOT the only affect of insulin resistance…many of the bodies functions are in turn thrown off balance…only treat blood glucose all of the other symptoms can and will still probably come back and bite you in the proverbial ass…God I hope this makes sense… The Good news , at least for us is the following…Keto diets improve insulin resistance…now in a person who has not yet developed diabetes..but is beginning to develop insulin resistance a keto diet can FIX the problem in about 10 mos to a year..provided they don't go back to eating a very high carb diet of pizzas and snack cakes again because that will eventually take them right back into insulin resistance…A diabetic especially a person who has been diabetic for a long period of time needs much more time on a keto diet to show significant improvement In insulin resistance…maybe years..but it DOES treat the insulin resistance…so going back to the man with the infected hand…you are treating the symptom of diabetes by lowering blood sugar..but you are also treating the cause…somebody gave the man with the infection some antibiotic…

RosalieM 2015-03-01 07:53:49 -0600 Report

That is exactly what I was saying in many smaller and more diverse posts. Thanks for putting it all in one place like that. It is so valuable.
I will just make one addition. the symptoms of insulin resistance are the symptoms of metabolic syndrome. They
are Poor circulation, high blood pressure and poor cholesterol ratio, all caused by obesity. Which results in insulin resistant
in the form of pre diabetes which leads to
full blown diabetes and in many cases pancreatic damage. The Keto diet is the answer at least until the other things get straightened out.

GabbyPA 2015-02-28 14:02:25 -0600 Report

To me, it's more like which came first, the chicken or the egg?

If high blood sugar causes poor circulation as you say, then even if it's the poor circulation that is causing the complication, poor glucose control is causing the poor circulation. You cannot separate the two. Like we don't go blind because of diabetes but poor control damages our capillaries in our eyes that causes us to loose our sight.

Diabetes is not what we die from except in extreme cases. Diabetes is a contributing factor to many other illnesses that strike us which we may or may not have other factors to calculate into that equation.

I always had great cholesterol and triglyceride levels but once I was diagnosed, those began to deteriorate. I have done a lot to fix that, but before diagnosis, I was great. Like I said, which came first?

RosalieM 2015-02-28 15:44:16 -0600 Report

Hi gabby,
That makes sense to me too. Here something to think about as well, If you do not have complications of poor circulation already, can you prevent them from occurring? I have had an A1c as high as 11 before I understood how to keep my blood sugar down. Now my A1c is 7 and has been for a long time. My experience has been that even with high blood sugar, doing the things to keep circulation, blood pressure and cholesterol ratio as close to normal as possible had a protective effect even with an A1c of 11 for a time. I suspect this goes against science as it is known to date. On the other hand, how many scientist have done this kind of experiment on themselves. What is there to lose If we attempt to maintain good circulation and cholesterol. Good blood pressure usually follows the other two. This would be in addition to working on blood sugar. Only good can come from working on two fronts at the same time. It may buy time to get the
blood sugar in line before complications set in. It seemed to have work for me and is still working. There is some science out there that says the clogging of the blood vessels can be reversed at least to some degree.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-02-28 14:14:11 -0600 Report

taking it even further…high blood glucose numbers is just a symptom of diabetes…just as high cholesterol and high blood pressure are…the root core of the problem is insulin sensitivity…if we treat the insulin sensitively…not just take drugs to help our insulin sensitivity…we treat the root cause of the problem…insulin sensitivity is caused by decades of over working our liver and pancreas. Refined carbs not healthy carbs are the villain here…but once your metabolism becomes impaired even regular unrefined "healthy" carbs are too much for the liver/pancreas to handle…it actually goes way deeper than this…down to a molecular health thingy…but I don't need to make people snore…pointing to just ONE symptom of diabetes as the root cause of all diabetics problems is irresponsible.. the human body is MUCH MUCH more complicated than that…and they're ARE foods that go to the heart of treating insulin sensitivity…many of which I eat on a regular basis…Most of the time when I research diabetes I do not search for ways to lower glucose levels…although those articles do pop up…I look for ways to naturally improve my insulin sensitivity…two foods might have the same amount of carbs..and affect your Blood glucose level in the same way…but which one if any will improve you Glucose sensitivity…??????…

RosalieM 2015-02-28 15:58:21 -0600 Report

You make some really good points. I don't know which foods effect insulin sensitivity. I have never heard of it.
Can you share that information please.
It is my understanding that insulin sensitivity simply goes away when normal weight is achieved. The pancreas may be damaged so not enough insulin is produced. I have that.
I think it is not a good idea to treat a damaged pancreas with
diabetes drugs. Insulin is what is missing when the pancreas is damaged, not drugs. In fact drugs didn't even work in my case I had to figure that out myself. Thanks for contributing to this conversation. If we put our experiences together perhaps we can make a discovery not yet known.

GabbyPA 2015-02-28 14:24:45 -0600 Report

I agree. We are far more complicated. Actually having diabetes has really made me aware of just how incredible our bodies are. How they take care of every little detail and how it takes so little to get us out of balance. That is why the word control sometimes makes me laugh. We cannot control what our bodies were meant to do. We manage, but we are not in control.

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-02-28 14:27:17 -0600 Report

It makes us all into research scientist of sorts…and the more I think I learn the less I actually find out I know because until you get down to a sub cellular level…you are not treating your body in an optimum fashion…I don't think I will ever understand everything…that is for people way smarter than I to do…but I never stop learning and never stop researching.

RosalieM 2015-02-28 16:26:02 -0600 Report

Hi Jibber,
It certainly does make us into research scientists. Perhaps together we can make a discovery some day.

RosalieM 2015-02-28 16:07:37 -0600 Report

It does make us into research scientists of sorts, I couldn't agree more. The one experiment the scientists studying diabetes have not been able to do, is to get a group of diabetics to cooperate to make a significant discovery. However we can do that here. We are doing it for ourselves, not some scientist somewhere. If I were a legitimate scientist studying diabetes, I would be on this site and others like it, asking questions like crazy. I am aware of no scientists here asking what we are learning.

GabbyPA 2015-02-28 14:51:14 -0600 Report

Some days my brain just hurts from thinking about this stuff. But yes, we keep at it to learn as much as we can. The hardest part is figuring out fact from fiction. There is often a blend of truth and exaggeration in most anything. That is what makes my brain scream

Jibber Jabber
Jibber Jabber 2015-03-01 01:10:25 -0600 Report

Oh Gabby…I swear if there was a way for people to make money from telling people to spin on their heads while counting backwards…THAT would be marketed as a cure for diabetes…a lot of fiction out there…hence the title of my post on baking soda…the sad part is so many people are desperate for a cure they spend more time researching for a miracle and not nearly enough time researching things that can actually help them…sad face

RosalieM 2015-02-28 16:16:26 -0600 Report

Hi Gabby,
I can relate to that, but that kind of analytical thinking protects your brain. It causes new connections. I have been studying that as well. At my age, I shouldn't even be able to write posts like this or even learn new things. That is the current scientific understanding. It doesn't have to be so. It is the under use of the brain that causes it to go down hill.
The science of that is just being revealed.

GabbyPA 2015-03-01 05:24:52 -0600 Report

Science and medicine, we put too much faith in those. Sometimes we just have to trust our own bodies and listen.

Stuart1966 2015-03-01 23:38:56 -0600 Report

Hello Gabby:
BELIEF-trust is not always true or accurate reason for the result(s) which occur, diabetic or otherwise.

Listening will not always provide good information. Conclusions are conclusions, not necessarily correct ones -wg-

GabbyPA 2015-03-03 09:05:50 -0600 Report

This is true, but sometimes when all else is failing, we need to look at what our bodies are telling us. Yes, our interpretation may be off, but discussion about what is going on should be just a valuable as a pill or shot. Sadly, doctors too often don't take time to listen to what we observe.

Let me just explain why I feel this way. My husband is paraplegic and has spasms. His body at times would just flare up in uncontrollable spasms. Doctors just filled him with drugs that made him sick, but not one would try to find out the trigger. After our observations over time we found that a UTI would be a trigger and if he started having spasms, we would check for a UTI. It was always there. It may be antidoctial and just for him, but once that is treated, the spasms stop. We told the doctors for a long time and no one would listen. Finally, we are at a point when his primary is on board. It only took us 6 years to work that out.

Doctors are not god and pills are not magic. Our bodies are wonders of nature and we ignore them far too often.

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