Is High Fructose Corn Syrup Especially Bad for Diabetics?

Diabetic Connect Staff
By Diabetic Connect StaffA Latest Reply 2012-04-19 07:37:23 -0500
Started 2012-01-26 12:27:52 -0600

Does fructose, especially high fructose corn syrup, concern you? Do you monitor how much of it you consume? Advocate Susan Sloane shares some research and advice on the issue in this article:

50 replies

anniebell01 2012-04-15 20:05:21 -0500 Report

Well, as IAm allergic to HFCS, I avoid it as much as possible. No diet sodas, etc., I'm adjusting fine without it. But it is in EVERYTHING! I try to cook from scratch as much as possible. That helps.

redeemed 2012-02-21 22:33:29 -0600 Report

I sent a letter to Michele Obama about 7 months ago because she has been in the lime light and a spokesperson on good health and attempting to leave her legacy as first lady-I asked her to please be a voice and get this additive out of our food-I said: " It is killing the lives you are so desparately trying to save" Guess what she sent back to me? A pat answer form letter # 9999 that never acknowledged the specifics -just thanks for writtin in…
The reason I am so concerned: I had a SPECTRA CELL BLOOD TEST. It measures the overall health and antioxidant strength about the body. The one negative thing that came back…I have a sensitivity to HFCS, and am advised to stear clear of it-great scott, its in everything. Then I met a baker at a bakery in Lake Tahoe who said most of her customers are VEGANS and she cannot avoid using HFCS in the bread because the VEGAN customers do not eat honey or anything from an animal but they'll scarf down unhealthy HFCS. My job is to eat Fruit/Vegetables and very small portions of lean meat-and read everything. Eating out is taking a risk so: IF YOU CANT PICK IT OR KILL IT-DONT EAT IT.
Thank you everyone for your imput and insights-

Anonymous 2012-02-20 14:32:35 -0600 Report

Well the answer is kind of OBVIOUS. It's sugar isn't? I have a life long illness that PREVENTS me from consuming any type of sugary products. UNLESS, I'm going thru a hypoglycemic episode. Then & only then,am I allowed to consume any type of sugary foods.

kllevin 2012-02-20 12:49:08 -0600 Report

Also, HFCS made from corn and sugar beets - corn and sugar beets in our food supply are now genetically modified.

foxy77380 2012-02-20 12:35:33 -0600 Report

to esj: High fructose corn syrup, HFCS, is an artificial product made from corn, not fruit.

It was originally invented to give corn farmers a market for their corn surplus. That was before corn started being used as a raw product to make ethanol for fuel. Then they started in about how THAT would drive up food prices, a self-fulfilling prophecy (that is, an excuse to do just that).

The answer to both problems is to outlaw HFCS. Like everything else we are battling for as a country, it will not be easy. Farm subsidies are hard enough to get rid of. But as a group diabetics should be especially interested in working for making HFCS illegal. It is bad not only for our health but also everyone else's.

jayabee52 2012-02-20 12:45:18 -0600 Report

should you wish to reply to someone in the future look at the little blue "reply" link below the post to which you want to reply.

Good points Foxy! Unfortunately the problem with the rising number of People with Diabetes (PWDs) is that it is multifactoral, not JUST from the use of HFCS.

foxy77380 2012-02-20 12:54:54 -0600 Report

thanks for the hint about the reply. however, i purposely put my message to the main list, not just be hidden under someone else's, because after the first sentence i wanted everyone to be sure to see it.

well, it is true that it is multifactorial, but that is not a reason not to work for making HFCS illegal. i never said it would be a cure, but it would help all of us a lot. i am actually tired of hearing that something is not worth doing just because it isn't the WHOLE answer. It is an example of minimizing. We can only do what we can do. And I believe this would be worth working for.

Another example of minimizing is hearing NY Mayor Bloomberg tell Meet the Press that since the super-super-rich are so few in number, we might as well not raise their taxes because it wouldn't affect the deficit much. This completely obscures the fact that the top 400 wealthiest people in the US have as much $$ as the lowest 140 million people!! That would surely make a difference! So he is deliberately making the number of super rich seem trivial in order to protect his self-interest.

jayabee52 2012-02-20 13:02:45 -0600 Report

I was not attempting to minimize it just pointing out that making HCFS go away will not make diabetes numbers stop rising.

jayabee52 2012-02-20 13:42:32 -0600 Report

I take it as a warning to limit the use of foods containing HCFS to help us manage our BG levels. If you are a PWD that ought be helpful.

I now don't use ANY sweeteners nor any thing like breads or things containing flour or corn products so I had gotten the message a while ago and finally acted on it a year ago with great results.

As far as taking on issues, I only have so much time and I am active in anti GMO efforts and other issues on a national and local level. Too many windmills, so little time!

foxy77380 2012-02-20 14:04:47 -0600 Report

yes, all of us have only so much time.
but anti-GMO and anti-HFCS are pretty closely related.

what is a PWD?

jayabee52 2012-02-20 14:09:58 -0600 Report

Person With Diabetes. (I don't like to use "Diabetic" I am a person not a diagnosis. I had been sensitized to that when I was a Certified Nurse Aide in the hospital. So I don't use it unless I absolutely must — as in the title of this website.)

Bamberg 2012-04-19 07:37:23 -0500 Report

I disagree. Eliminating corn syrup would stop the rise of diabetes in it's tracks. Of course, politicians would have to stand up to corporate interests, and that's not going to happen anytime soon.

esjesjesj 2012-02-20 11:38:28 -0600 Report

all the discussion of fructose is bad is rather depressing. I love fruit. It is my number one food source. It's the only food that really taste good. Meat, vegetables are something I put in to me to keep me alive and make the pain in my belly go away.

I've been on fruit restricted diets to try and control my triglycerides (in the 600s) with no success. Severe depression, constipation, and general ill health become the norm. It takes tablespoons of bulk laxatives per day to replace three apples

Between diabetes, migraines, and lactose intolerance, I've had to give up a lot of food and what I'm left with really isn't worth eating let alone preparing. So I'm going to keep eating fruit, ignore my triglyceride level, and do my best to manage blood sugar level.

Don't Wanna
Don't Wanna 2012-02-20 10:28:43 -0600 Report

I have heard all the comercials on TV also. I knew I couldn't trust it because it was by manufacturers who wanted to sell their product. Now I understand much better. Thank you.

jim healthy
jim healthy 2012-02-20 10:23:22 -0600 Report

Hi, Susan … It's important to make the distinction between HFCS and fructose (which is the naturally-occuring sugar in fruits and vegetables). HFCS is super-concentrated, so its easy to consume too much. Just one HFCS-sweetened beverage contains the fructose equivalent of 12 apples. The biggest problem with any form of fructose is that its dose-specific. More that 25 gm (approx. 5 teaspoons) per daily can lead to trouble in the liver. But since pure fructose (not HFCS) is 2-3 times sweeter than table sugar (sucrose plus glucose), anyone consuming this much has a serious sugar addiction and should address it. Fructose is availabe as crystaline fructose and can be used to sweeten coffee or tea. Because it looks and bakes exactly like table sugar, it is a perfect swap. (Stevia does not bake well, and many people do not like it's bitter aftertaste.) Pure fructose has the lowest GI of all natural sugars. It's GI is 19 compared to 31 for skim milk. Pure fructose will NOT spike blood sugar. In fact, small amounts of fructose consumed before a meal can actually LOWER the total rise in blood glucose after eating. If one must have a little sweetener, pure fructose is far safer that artificial sweeteners which have been linked to dementia, Alzheimer's, and certain cancers. Jim Healthy

jayabee52 2012-02-20 10:37:03 -0600 Report

Howdy Jim
In reading up on fructose I found this disturbing warning:

"Why is this bad?
This is potentially bad for at least three reasons:
•High blood triglycerides are a risk factor for heart disease.
•Fructose ends up circumventing the normal appetite signaling system, so appetite-regulating hormones aren't triggered—and you're left feeling unsatisfied. This is probably at least part of the reason why excess fructose consumption is associated with weight gain.
•There is growing evidence that excess fructose consumption may facilitate insulin resistance, and eventually type 2 diabetes. However, some of this effect may be from chemicals in soda which reacts with the high fructose corn syrup."

from "Fructose: Sweet, But Dangerous" link to the whole article here ~

It is disturbing to me because growing up I was raised in a household where honey was the substance we used sweeten things. And honey is mainly fructose.

And about Triglycerides (which are produced by fructose metabolism) see this here~

Jim, are you giving us some info which while it may be partly true but the part that you don't tell us is essentially unhealthy? Or is it that you just don't know about the unhealthy part?

jim healthy
jim healthy 2012-02-20 11:14:09 -0600 Report

Hi, James … Please read the link you supplied us with more carefully. As I said in my post, the problem with fructose consumption is dose-specific. All the problems you mention occur when one overconsumes fructose in any form. The problems you cite are in response to the question in the article: "What happens if I consume TOO MUCH fructose?" (emphasis mine). And "too much" is the operative qualifier here. Pure fructose remains safe in small amounts (less than 25 gm). It has far fewer calories that sugar and won't spike blood sugar. The article you cite confirms this: "… it does not cause blood sugar rise tremendously …" (Though I don't know why the author added "tremendously" because in small, sane quantities it doesn't raise blood sugar at all.) Your article goes on: " … there is evidence that a little bit may help your body process glucose properly." You state: " There is growing evidence that excess fructose consumption may facilitate insulin resistance…" Yes, James, EXCESS consumption of fructose is bad. But, if you re-read my post, you'll see that I already mention this. I'm not encouraging excess consumption — in fact, I discourage it. My point is that fructose provides the diabetic with a viable alternative to artificial sweeteners which are clearky NOT healthful. Pure fructose is low in calories (about 90% less that table sugar) … won't elevate blood glucose … and — in small, reasonable quantities — helps the body metabolize glucose even better. The only unhealthy consequence of fructose comes from overconsuming it (which is easy to do when it is in the form of HFCS). Otherwise, for those wishing an occassional "something sweet," (and who can't tolerate the bitterness of stevia), pure fructose is a safe, satisfying alternative. Jim

Type1Lou 2012-02-20 08:05:21 -0600 Report

Susan Sloan's article was very informative. I knew that I had to avoid HFC…just not "why". About a year ago, I introduced apples back into my diet and my lunch is usually an apple, sliced and slathered with natural peanut butter. I religiously read all food labels and try to limit my daily carb intake to no more than 120 grams. It's not easy but the BG and weight results are the reward.

Okiedude 2012-02-12 06:09:15 -0600 Report

My 93 year old Diabetic Dad says, "exercise regularly, eat right, avoid stress…DIE anyway!" I know it's important to try to maintain good health and all that…but I have to ask myself that if I am a good Christian then why am I trying to artificially prolong my time here on Earth when I could be "living large" in Heaven!?! Just Saying. E1 HAGD!

jayabee52 2012-02-12 08:28:32 -0600 Report

As a "Good Chirstian" you want to maintain the Lord's "Temple" (your body - 1 Corinthians 6:19) the best you can.

I also am a Christian and look forward to going to heaven to be with Jesus and my loved ones forever in a perfect body yet as my Lord hasn't chosen to call me "home" just yet, I must be of some use here on earth.

GabbyPA 2012-01-27 09:23:53 -0600 Report

You have to read the ingredients of prepared foods. It will shock you. I use Worcestershire sauce...HFC. I use vanilla extract...HFC. You have to look for brands that don't use it and as Old-n-Grey is in nearly every food product. Make your meals from scratch, not a box.

The commercials on TV that are touting HFC really make me angry. It doesn't even matter if our bodies cannot tell the difference ( I believe they can and most HFC is GMO) but we should not be encouraging anyone to eat any of it.

maclover1524 2012-01-26 22:06:38 -0600 Report

All sugar —- All Sugar is toxic for a diabetic. Monitor your carbohydrates, count your carbs every day, limit your carbs every day and you will limit your HFCS. Stay away from pre-packaged foods. Shop the perimeter of your grocery store - stay out of the middle of the grocery store because that is where all sugar lurks hidden in those packages especially HFCS!

Caroltoo 2012-01-26 15:36:27 -0600 Report

Article distinquishes between how various sugars are absorbed into the body and why High Fructose Corn Syrup is more dangerous than regular sugar. Thanks for posting this, Sloan.

MEGriff1950 2012-01-26 14:01:15 -0600 Report

Some sugar does not hurt it is the total carbs that count most being mindful that all sugars affect you blood glucose.

Old-n-Grey-n-Wiser 2012-01-26 13:15:01 -0600 Report

It is impossible to keep high fructose corn syrup out of one's diet unless you make everything from scratch, then you have to watch you ingredients, many years ago my daughter was told to avoid all HTCS, due to a GI problem, it is in 99% of any product you buy off shelf.

annesmith 2012-02-03 02:11:55 -0600 Report

Yes , it is impossible. My dad and I were both told we were allergic to corn GOD, we had been eating so much of it for years, by the time we found out, we just kind of said " Okay, but, just about everything has corn syrup in it." We are ( he is deceased) both brittle diabetics. It was also found in the emergency room I am allergic to the natural sugar my body makes…I was shocked when I found this out 7 years ago…I mean, heck, not to sound negative, but, what I do is follow the rule " moderation is the key". There is simply NO way I am going to not eat all corn syrup products…I cut back of course, but, boy, it's hard. The back of most labels, you'll find corn syrup or related every single time. I was told the corn syrup was damaging our insides..( my dad and me). I believe it, as, since I was 4 years old, I'd have the worst peptic ulcer disease and inflammation. ANNE

Andre Chimene
Andre Chimene 2012-02-20 08:51:56 -0600 Report

Dr. Richard Bernstein would tell you there is no such thing as a brittle diabetic. I was told the same thing. My blood sugars were; 200, 340,90,45,220,170,…all in one day. Dr. Bernstein says "there is no such thing as brittle…you are just eating too many carbs." After I read that, I saw his recommendations for carbs…6/breakfast…12/lunch…12/dinner..I tried it and the next day I was normal for the first time in 10 years. Now I have had normal blood sugars round the clock for 5 years. I am a Type 1. You can do this too. Taper down your carbs as you taper down your meds. Read…Dr. Richard Bernstein's "Diabetes Solution".

annesmith 2012-02-21 01:12:42 -0600 Report

No offense to you at all, but I disagree with that doctor respectfully. The internist that diagnosed me was extremely competent, and one of the best in the state of Iowa. Yes, I do agree that the brittle can be smoothed out and tapered off, but, a regular type 2 would not ever see numbers like that. I had another very very competent diabetic doctor guarantee me that. Thank you for the information,'s all positive stuff. How can I reduce my carbs when I already don't eat enough of them? My A1c has been stuck on very low—-only 5.9, for 3 and a half years now, I feel like crap, and my numbers are extremely brittle at 5.9. If I reduce my carbs, I'll fall way too low and into a diabetic coma. You did not know this, though…ha. I need to raise my A1c, increase my carbs, and do it ever so carefully, and continue to try to stabilze my brittle numbers. Thanks you again for the information. Sincerely, ANNE

annesmith 2012-02-21 23:05:06 -0600 Report

Yeah, I know it exists in both types, as I found it several times online. I bet you miss her a lot. ANNE

Andre Chimene
Andre Chimene 2012-02-21 01:31:09 -0600 Report

Anne, you may disagree with "that Dr". It shows you have never read Dr. Richard Bernstein and you don't know what is possible as far as diabetic control. Read his book, open your eyes to a Type 1 Diabetic doctor (he is Type 1 for over 70 years). I have worked with the best endos in the country…they couldn't help me. No disrepect to your doctors but if they can't help you normalize your blood sugars…80-90 fasting and never over 130 after meals…I would say they are not giving you the direction and help that you need. I am a Type 1, my A1c is 4.8. Dr. Bernsteins A1c, as a type 1 for over 70 years, is 4.5. He is the oldest living Type 1 with no complications. For every .5 A1c increase over 5…you risk of heart disease doubles. As far as carbs…there is no need for any. No essential carbohydrate exists. You will not fall into a diabetic coma if you use small doses of meds and control your bs with diet and exercise. See Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution…"the law of small numbers". It is much easier to bring your bs up than down. It is a rare thing for a diabetic to die of low blood sugar. 99% of diabetics die from complications from high blood sugars. At 5.9 A1c, your average blood sugar is 123. You are 1 1/2 times normal. I would say that you are doing very well and perhaps that is good enough for you. I hope you will open your eyes to reality that you can normalize your blood sugar 24 hours a day and eliminate any diabetic complications thus healing your body. You deserve normal blood sugars. You deserve better than normal health. You deserve to finish the journey for truth that you are on. It is your choice. You take the blue pill-the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe your doctors. The red pill will lead your escape from the Diabetes Matrix and on to true health. It is your choice.

annesmith 2012-02-21 03:42:07 -0600 Report

I respectfully request you never write to me again. You stated I am not a brittle diabetic, when I was found to be one without a doubt. You also stated that I am doing very well at my current numbers. Be careful, and no aggressiveness directed at you at all here, but you are not a doctor, and if you are, then still be careful, as you actually tried to re-diagnose me . I am not doing well at all at my current A1c, and had that more than verified at the outstanding hospital I go to. You have no right to tell me I obviously don't know anything about taking care of my diabetes. Absolutely no more letters from you…I am thinking about never coming back to this site because of what you said, and I have never ever had a problem with anybody on here. I wish you the best, sincerely, ANNE

annesmith 2012-02-21 02:39:03 -0600 Report

I am not doing well at all, but thank you for the information. One of the best doctors in the hospital I go to to said that most diabetics die from lows, not highs..he explained it by saying that the body has little to draw off of if the blood sugar is too low. Like I said, I realize brittle can be smoothed out and made not brittle anymore. My 2 hours after eating is always between 180 and 600…way too high. However, when I was tried on Metformin, my pancreas rejected it, and I was given insulin in the emergency room. They said I responded beautifully to the insulin. When I was in the emergency for a severe low in 2005, I had a heart attack and started going comotose , and also had 3 or 4 body does not handle lows well at all. My range at an A1c of 5.9 has been very very very abnormal…yeah, 123 is a good average, but, my range is between 86 and 600, for example, I swing everyday every 5 minutes, every 20 minutes. I have walked and ran all my life very hard, and will never stop doing that. I appreciate you saying you would say I am doing well, but I'm doing terrible, because my blood sugars change all the time…they are diagnosed as very unstable. I'm working on finding a new endo, but the last one I had found everything in the bloodwork, so there's no disputing him. The only reason I left that office is because his nurse practitioner was going to be taken to court for trying to REMOVE peoples' diagnoses of diabetes . That internist was right on target in what he found with me. I've always been an athlete, not perfect on my diet, but have been adding more greens to my diet…I'm not giving up, just tired of different things happening in the offices. By the way, I did not call him " that doctor", so I'm kind of hurt you'd say I did. He sounds like an outstanding doctor. The internist I had was going to start me on a regular dose of insulin daily, which was more than proven it helped me tremendously, so, be careful how you read things and how you state things, as , the internist I had more than steered me in the right direction. It was his nurse practitioner that drove me and many other of his patients away. I do know what is possible for diabetic control, but of course the doctor you mentioned would know a lot more. The doctor in the emergency room at the outstanding hospital I've always gone to said 99% of his patients over years died of lows, not highs. Highs are very damaging to the organs and can kill a person, too. I was told by more than one doctor I do not eat enough carbs..he more than told me the truth..sincerely, ANNE

Andre Chimene
Andre Chimene 2012-02-21 03:33:39 -0600 Report

Anne, I did not mean to offend you, only correct you. I am also happy to correct your doctor. In the emergency room, perhaps they see more deaths due to lows but that is in the emergency room. 99% of diabetics die from high blood sugar complications. That means cancer, heart disease, stroke, kidney failure, altzheimers etc etc etc. 99% of all diabetics die from complications of uncontrolled blood sugars. W hat is a fact. When I was diagnosed with blood sugars over 800, I was given a c peptide test and determined that my betas were burned out. I have been on insulin for 15 years .It can be a life saver. However, without controlled blood sugar, my life would be hell on earth. You are not different than I or an impossible case to fix. I work now with Dr. Ron Rosedale. He has had 3 metabolic clinics and we normalize blood sugar for thousands of patients. No one is beyond repair. There are no incurable diseases. I offer you the ooportunity to test Dr. Bernstein. To test Dr. Rosedale. To test me. It is very hard to prove something is right but very easy to prove something is wrong. It is your choice I have made mine. I made my decision as soon as I read Dr. Bernstein's book and realized that I had not been given the right information on how to be healthy and what was possible. I woke up.

annesmith 2012-02-21 03:53:03 -0600 Report

ALL APOLOGIES…I am truly sorry…I thought in your first letter you were saying something entirely different…we just were not communicating…ignore my request of no more letters…like I said we were not communicating. My C-peptide shows I am lower end type shows I produce 4%-10% of my own insulin. I tested positive for the antibodies test. My highest blood sugar, and yeah, it's happened more than once, was 701. What we were not communicating on is: I don't eat that many carbs, and I feel awful not eating enough of them, but when I did eat them, yes, I rose very very high. Geez, I feel really bad we weren't communicating. How about this? I'll read some of the book, and no hard feelings. I just have gone so long eating low to virtually zero carbs, and feeling like hell ( excuse the use of my word hell—ha), that it's not so much I don't believe the doctor in that great book, it's just that I have felt so much better when I have increased my carbs. Again, ignore my last request…sincerely, ANNE

Andre Chimene
Andre Chimene 2012-02-21 23:46:38 -0600 Report

No hard feelings. I only want to reach out to you to say…it is your choice. Of course you feel better with more carbs. That really means you feel better with a higher than normal blood sugar. Your body tries to compensate for the high blood sugar. You have to stair step down to normal. Drop 20-30 points for a few days, hold there, then drop again. You may feel normal or better at a high bs but you are doing damage. Either you want to wake up to the truth or you will get a physical wake up call thru having high blood sugars and the damage that they do. I feel that you are not ready to wake up. You have been given the tools, Dr. Bernstein;'s book and Jenny Ruhls blog……all the information you need to know to come to the truth. If you want to wake up, you may email me at small…if not, go back to sleep and enjoy the Diabetes Matrix.

annesmith 2012-02-22 01:00:15 -0600 Report

I see what you are saying, but when I almost went into a coma in 2005 with the Metformin, I ate so little for so long, along with virtually zero carbs, that to this day, 6 years later, to be able to eat, and not suffer from lows in the 50s, feels so much better. I have walked and ran all my life 5 days a week, moderately to high. Thanks again for the book information. Sincerely, ANNE

Caroltoo 2012-01-26 13:32:10 -0600 Report

One of the many reasons I cook from scratch with all fresh ingredients. Occasionally, I'll freeze something I've cooked, but rarely purchase frozen cause I have allergies to the many products used in preping foods even for freezing or canning.

jayabee52 2012-02-20 08:12:13 -0600 Report

If one pressiure cans their own produce then what goes into the can be controlled. When my ex and I did it we rarely put any additives into our cans except pure natural produce and water. I'd be doing it today if I could.

Caroltoo 2012-02-20 16:56:50 -0600 Report

Definitely, that was my point, that you/me/anyone can control what goes into frozen or canned foods IF, and only if, you start with clean, fresh, organic foods you cook from scratch.

When I mentioned the allergies, it was in the context of purchased frozen or canned foods, not home created ones.

I understand you probably wouldn't want to can things now, but don't you cook and freeze some? I find that works in small sizes better than canning which requires more prep. room and storage space.

jayabee52 2012-02-21 14:43:17 -0600 Report

plus I don't have the necessary equipment (ie pressure canner and jars) Yes and storage can be a problem too.

GabbyPA 2012-02-21 16:39:04 -0600 Report

No pressure cooker required. Just a deep pan that will cover your jars. Smaller jars, smaller pan. I canned for three years with only my camping pans and metal tongs. I have a basket now and proper tools. Makes it easier, but not required.

jayabee52 2012-02-21 19:51:53 -0600 Report

I had understood that one could water bath can high acid content foods like tomatoes but for those things which had not so high acid content you'd run the risk of spoilage and perhaps botulism. We heeded the warning. We got that warning from the "stocking up" book as well as in the "Ball" canning books.

Anyway, I still have the hurdle of acquiring jars. New jars in the stores are SOOOO expensive! I guess if I really wanted I could ask my ex for one of the two pressure canners she kept in the divorce. I had asked her at the time of the divorce but she said no. Since 10 yrs have passed and she's ok with talking to me now, she might be more amenable. Perhaps I could get some jars from her too.

GabbyPA 2012-02-22 07:34:51 -0600 Report

If you increase the acid in the low acid foods by even adding some lemon or other balance, you can prevent that. But it is true. You do have to be careful and never eat from a funny looking jar.

Yeah, the jars are expensive and now they use the aluminum rings and those don't hold up as well I am hearing. The acid eats though those. I have been researching the reusable plastic lids that have not leeching chemicals in them. But I think yard sales are where to find them.